Discussion about this post

User's avatar
DeepLeftAnalysis🔸's avatar

"What DeepLeft overlooks is that this doesn’t give us a model of sustained growth... Clearly, a cut in population isn’t enough to pull off long run growth."

There seems to be no disagreement between us, except that you ascribe beliefs to me that I do not hold.

My original article wasn't saying that reducing the human population to 20 dudes would produce more economic growth than 8 billion people over the next 200 years. My article was showing that over short periods (less than 100 years) you can have economic growth DESPITE a 10% population decline.

I am trying to diffuse hysteria over TEMPORARY population declines, like the ones we see in Europe, Japan, and South Korea. I do not think these will lead to the collapse of civilization, SO LONG AS they can be solved within the next 100 years, which is entirely plausible. It is not a crisis, and calling it a birth rate crisis obscures and distracts from much more important issues.

I am trying to refocus our collective problem-solving capacity away from "more births" toward solving problems of international security via foreign aid. For example, our goal should be to do to Africa what the CCP did in China, in a more humane and peaceful way. That seems to be an easier and quicker problem to solve than trying to get gay zoomers to pump out more babies.

It is my belief that after 2-3 generations of record low birth rates, natalism will win out naturally, without the need for government intervention. I think Ryan Burge's data on religion shows this quite clearly: there are diminishing returns to the secular erosion of religion. What you are left with is a kind of "antibiotic resistant strain" of religion which can survive the ideological pressures of modernity. No need for child tax credits, housing subsidies, or any of the other extremely expensive $200k-per-baby schemes.

With that having been said, I'd like to add on some things which move beyond the scope of your article, and push this conversation into the realm of a more substantive debate which will be more useful to both of us as well as my audience.

Depending on your view of the heritability of IQ and the cultural cost of diversity, immigration has already solved the problem of low fertility. We don't have a declining population at a global scale, and I don't often see models that predict global shrinkage before 2100. So we have 75 years, which is quite long enough for the problem to be solved without the kind of authoritarian theocracy or fiscal irresponsibility (expansion of welfarism) advocated by natalists.

One of the natalist objections to immigration is that they believe immigrants have low economic productivity because they have lower genetic IQ than white natives. Some natalists hint at this view without being honest enough to say it and claim to be anti-racist. Whether or not it is racist, it deserves to be addressed in a rational way.

When we get into IQ, I would make the argument that it is much more important for economic growth within a welfare system to reduce the population of people with an IQ under 70 than to increase the population of people with an IQ of 100. I would argue that poor people are more sensitive to natalist monetary incentives, and therefore, these incentives are inherently suspect from a long-term economic point of view, taking into account the financial burden of low intelligence.

You have claimed that by using extremely complex and targeted policies, you can ameliorate this risk, but I think that government policies can never be this precise and they always degrade toward the lowest-common-denominator. If you want to build a bridge in a year for $100 million, it gets built in 10 years for $1 billion. Similarly, if you want eugenic natalism, you're going to get dysgenic natalism. This isn't an attack on your position specifically, but it is an attack on your faith in the precision of government as a tool for changing human behavior without generating negative externalities.

To conclude: While I appreciate your dedication in trying to refute my views, the views you have refuted are not the ones I hold. If you read my original article and got the impression that I was saying, "we only need 200 dudes for the next 300 years, and we will have more economic growth than a billion dudes over 300 years," that is either a mistake of interpretation on your part, or a lack of clarity on my part. I hope my response here clarifies my view and we can move forward and get into real disagreements, as pertain to pollution, security, immigration, and human intelligence. -DLA

Thomas L. Hutcheson's avatar

One might have a model in which a low level (Malthusian) equilibrium trap is broken by an exogenous population decline and some of the increase real income per person goes toward creating innovation (or just any kind of by-hypothesis non-depreciating capital?).

40 more comments...

No posts

Ready for more?